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Mupp3t
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:27 pm    Post subject: #1 Reply with quote

hey,
as TAM + invis is votable now, i wondered if it was possible to make that without CM as CB doesnt have CM?
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}TCP{Wolf
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possible, yes... desired?
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Mupp3t
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes =P
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}TCP{Snowbird
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

? Popcorn
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}TCP{Cloud
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

}TCP{Snowbird wrote:
? Popcorn
CM=Challenge Mode

If 1 team is dominating, the weaker team gets more health and so. Razz
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}TCP{Snowbird
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks man, I wa snot sure. Sounds interesting since I am one of the weakers.... Wink
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}TCP{Wolf
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well #1 should be the training server with a configuration closer to CB. The question basically is if we want the complete same competitive configuration we have to play in CB or we we leave a little bit of our style in it.

It is probably a good idea to have another votable gametype which is an exact duplicate of CB for matches. If we really want to use that in training as well... me neutral on that. It probably would make sense but I wouldn't want to frustrate people too much either.

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}TCP{Ramses
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that CB chose to play with every option that is opposite to my own preferences for fairplay and interesting matches (invis, no CM, no res, win at all costs) Laughing

It would make sense to set the votable lame TAM training settings Razz to the same conditions that you would encounter in CB matches. I don't mind, I can always hop to server 4 or somewhere when invis rears its' ugly head Razz

It's just a shame that there seems to be little choise but to downgrade if you want to play competative matches in UT2k4. It's still fun to cheer from the sidelines when the Clan wins a match Smile
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Mupp3t
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeah but, with CM u can simply flak somone on distance or 1 shot hs someone.. it would be more of use to not use CM nor disable invis. i dont like invis either, i rarely use it. but still, others do. Seeing two training evenings in the week i think training itself can use a bit more realism towards Clanbase too Very Happy
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Taz
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

}TCP{Ramses wrote:
It seems that CB chose to play with every option that is opposite to my own preferences for fairplay and interesting matches (invis, no CM, no res, win at all costs) Laughing

It would make sense to set the votable lame TAM training settings Razz to the same conditions that you would encounter in CB matches. I don't mind, I can always hop to server 4 or somewhere when invis rears its' ugly head Razz

It's just a shame that there seems to be little choise but to downgrade if you want to play competative matches in UT2k4. It's still fun to cheer from the sidelines when the Clan wins a match Smile


I find it more interesting with invisibility and no CM, makes it more challenging (with CM too, but I hate that, it's not "fair" when one team gets less health than you do :p). Just imagine fending off an invisible enemy and killing it in the end. It's a good feeling, I know because when Wolf kills me with invis he gets so happy that hes about to fly thru the damn roof Razz
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}TCP{Ramses
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many games where once you gain the upper hand it is a foregone conclusion who will win, no point in playing to the end etc ... those are the games that usually end up collecting dust on my shelf Confused .

I remember NMS once saying that denying spawners any access to weapons in TDM is an important skill, and I can understand why that is because it gives a big advantage and helps to keep you on top. But it also has the effect of magnifying the advantages that very skilled players have; if you can't kill NMS or Taz when you are armed to the teeth you have very little chance when armed with a pop gun Laughing . It's one reason why I prefer TAM to TDM, and with TAM I get no nagging feeling that I've done the dirty on a spawner when I shoot Laughing

Similarly, adrenalin also magnifies the advantages that very skilled players have. I think that CM redresses the balance a little bit the other way and keeps everyone battling on against the odds Razz.

As for invis, it's a shame that fairplay didn't survive into UT2k4 competative matches imo, it was one of the reasons why Unreal was so successful. There was a time when players shunned invisibily, double damage, spawn killing and any other disproportionate game feature to make the game more enjoyable for all ... now it seems that the Quake yob ethos of win at all costs rules the competative roost Razz .

edit: This post is just to explain my view ... no offence is intended to anyone whose view differs, just thought I'd make that clear Cool
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NmS
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the competitive scene of UT there have always been the use of invis in matches. Heck they even played 1on1 with double damage at WCG 2002 in UT2003. Only thing they never use in 1on1 is adrenaline, because the focus is entirely set on control of a map. And the one that is in control, usually makes the most kills, so adrenaline is kinda useless then.

These days I don't care much about rules, I just play along. It won't matter for me anyway with which rules we play. I play with most rules just as good as with any other rule.
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}TCP{Wolf
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to add a few things to Ramses' little nostalgia memory refresher, since his (and most of the olskoolers' sense of fairplay) is based on how Unreal (not Tournament nor UT2k3/4) was played back in the days.

As far as I can think back, there have always been different opinions as to how the game should be played (any puns or similarities to NVidia's advertisements here are purely coincidental btw...Razz), there have always been the "fun" and the "pro" players, but it has never been such an extreme difference as there is now.

Indeed when I started playing everything appeared to be more relaxed and basically people just played. The whole "elite vs fun noobs" war escalated when more and more features were ported from the emerging UT titles back to Unreal, because many figured with the features the style should also change.

Smartball and myself were (in part) majorily responsible for that as well, since the 2 of us implemented many of the features we were asked for to port back - however, both of us actively refused most of "hard coding" requests, meaning we always left it server administrators which style he/she wanted on his/her server to be played. We just delivered the tools...

But still, even at the peak-difference time in Unreal, there were certain things that you could rely on nevertheless, for example:

1) Weapon stay was ALWAYS on in teamgames, also in competitive ladders or cups

2) Weapon stay was USUALLY on even in 1 vs 1 servers

3) Amplifier and Invis were RARELY seen anywhere online, regardless if fun or pro server, except on Cooperative servers where you don't use them against each other

The point is, that even at the most extreme point, the 2 groups were never as much apart as now, here, in UT2k4. For some unknown reason or another, the so called "pros" make the rules for the majority of games in UT2k4 nowadays. There is no balancing counter group as there was in Unreal, the few clans like f00k who actively and exclusively play for fun and openly refuse clanbase and their rules are the exception.

TCP, coming from a background that would put us to extreme "fun" end of the line, has already made a lot of sacrifices and adjustments to meet majority and public demand while trying to keep the fun alive by keeping some of the old rules intact.

At some places there have been casualties, bad ones, and if things go on like this there are probably more to come in the future. Just look at "TeamGames"... we've played them in the past, but with the elitist attitude it is being played now in ladders and cups, there is no point in us ever joining in. We don't have the time or motivation to train map/item domination, because the level required to compete there takes out the fun of the game. Besides, we do have lives and more important things todo. This is still a game after all. We can play competitively, sure, but within reasonable limits. I rather go out with friends and eat some Sushi than spending hours memorizing map paths I have to take in order to keep map control with my teammates ffs....

TAM / Freon is a game mode which we are playing since it has some of the attributes that "TeamGames" have lost. As Ramses has pointed out correctly, there are factors that do balance a little, like spawnkilling is impossible etc...

In the future we will not have to decide if we put this or that feature on or off because that is "how it is played". The actual decision we have to make at some point is, how far away from our roots we are willing to go. The current TAM playstyle isn't what us oldskool-TCP players are used to and like. However, it may still be within limits of "ookay...", though not so for some.

I am very much against disabling CM on #1 by default, but enabling a CB equivalent game type votable, so we can have precise match settings if and when we need them. My reasoning, if you have read all that rambling above, should be obvious.

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Mupp3t
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that was what i thought the tam+invis option was supposed to be. its even handy for if theres gonna be some war played ?
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Mupp3t
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i really really liked the games we played yesterday (monday) without Challenge Mode nor Pick ups.

so please make this a votable option ???
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